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From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the journalist of "Rai3"

2024-06-02 22:03:00, Politikë CNA

"Rai3" conducted an interview with Prime Minister Edi Rama, after the reportage published on the show "Report" about Albania.

Rama spoke about the emigrants' agreement with Italy, about the statements of former deputy prime minister Arben Ahmetaj and the towers in Tirana.

He had strong clashes with the journalist Giorgio Mottola, as the latter mentioned SP exponents accused of being linked to crime.

Also, Rama spoke about the accusations against his brother Olsi Rama. The head of the government did not hesitate to express his dissatisfaction with the Italian television and the reports about Albania.

Rama's interview:

Rai3: Then, Prime Minister, thank you for accepting this interview. We appreciate it very much as a sign of great availability. The first question is this: You described my show, my investigation as "disgusting". Is it a translation error or did you really mean "disgusting"?

Prime Minister: Now you are here in my house and I would not like to insist on that word, but if you want to insist, yes, it was very disgusting.

Rai3: Why?

Prime Minister: Because it was very clear that the goal was to make a show about migrant reception centers and it is your sacred right, I cannot even question it, for you to have your opinion, to inform your public about this opinion, to collect the facts... But, to connect this Italian story of yours with everything you had sewn together for Albania, the Albanian government, for the General Secretary of the Council of Ministers, with rather obscure characters of Albania, it seemed as if, in fact, it was clear that the message was that the deal was between an Italian government that you don't hide that you don't appreciate and...

Rai3: We have criticized all governments.

The Prime Minister: ... and between a government in Albania, which appears as a shadow partner, with characters connected to drug trafficking or this or that other. That is the disgusting part, not the fact that you address in your program the problem of how this whole arrangement is to be administered. Even questioning the very idea of ??the agreement, and the whole mountain of half-truths, which are the biggest lies, is disgusting.

Rai3: I will certainly give you the opportunity to explain about this work of the narco-state. I will start from the centers for immigrants. How did this idea come about? Who proposed to you?

The Prime Minister: I have said it and I repeat it, it was a very friendly request from Xorxha, if I would consider the possibility of doing something together about this and I said "why not, let's think about it". Then, months passed, she came to Albania and we had the opportunity to discuss at length what could be done, what could be our part in this matter and, then, we did it.

Rai3: However, don't you think that the deportation of migrants trying to reach Italy towards Albania is a violation of basic human rights?

Prime Minister: This is one way of looking at it, but there is another way of looking at it, because geography cannot be the curse of Italy, which has been left alone for too long. In dramatic moments in time, it has really been abandoned in its solitude, because if one sets foot in Italy, he sets foot in Europe. So it is not one that arrives there and Italy has to manage it by itself; it is someone who arrives in Europe and Europe must manage it together. Moreover, there is an important provision of the European legislation, which is redistribution, and which, clearly, has not worked. To the detriment of Italy. Meanwhile, we are not a country that is part of the EU, we are part of E, so we are a European country, we are located on the other side of the sea from Italy and, quite simply, we have taken on a responsibility as Europeans, in the sense that , you need us to contribute and participate. If this had been done by Slovakia, Poland or anyone else who is in the European Union, nothing would have been said, but the fact that Albania is not in the European Union raises all this noise and, subsequently, this interpretation. I said subjective, factual.

Rai3: Yes, if, at the time when the Albanians passed through the Canal of Otranto to arrive in Italy, they were deported to Tunisia, to Egypt, waiting for the answer to their request for asylum, what would you think?

Prime Minister: First of all, it is not the same thing...

Rai3: It's okay, let's start again.

Prime Minister: Did you hear that? He has subversive ideas...

Rai3: Subversive ideas? Absolutely not.

Prime Minister: Just kidding. First of all, it's not the same thing. We are in a situation where we need a common European approach, for everyone. It is not a topic of the politics of the day or electoral interests, it is too big an issue to become the subject of political clashes. Because at the end of the day, everyone, when they come to the government, think the same and want to do almost the same thing. Whether it's the left or the right, in Italy and everywhere, they talk about controlling flows, they talk about illegal flows, they talk...

Rai3: Absolutely...

Prime Minister: Then what?!

Do we become moral when we sit there and see others who have to manage it, and then when it comes to managing it ourselves we do the same? Here there is a need for a big common table of all, beyond the left and the right, to understand, on the one hand, that there is a demography that is punishing an entire Europe, let's say, especially the old Europe.. .

Rai3: A demographic winter.

Prime Minister: ... with the increase in the age of the population that does not seem to have a solution, meanwhile, on the other hand, there is an extraordinary need for new workforce. Where will they find them? That it doesn't seem to me that young Italians are inclined to have more children, to help the tricolor flag.

Rai3: Here I distinguish the socialist Rama.

Prime Minister: Socialist Ramen?... Actually, I'm a bit of a strange socialist, because I don't believe in ideological trenches. I believe in shared solutions and solutions that work. If a solution works, it works and cannot be labeled as left or right and then become something that does not work.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Rai3: So, with this agreement you are contributing to the construction of a model according to which rich countries will solve the problem by offloading it to poor countries?

Prime Minister: First of all, I said from the beginning, Albania cannot solve this problem, no matter what it does. This problem is solved together and it is not a problem that you can transfer, it is a problem that you have to hit and it has to be hit together. In this sense, I was talking about the content of this Europe, in the face of this challenge of aging and the lack of labor and, on the other hand, I was talking about the need not to fall victim to all the criminal desires of those who use poverty, which they use all the problems of the poor to take the last money they have left and bring it to Europe without any control, without any filter, without any policy. Then, we must work for this, not for the fact that, if Xorxha does it, it is bad, if Minniti does it, it is good, or vice versa.

Rai3: The rest of Europe has embraced this project. The electoral manifesto of the European popular parties contains exactly this solution: the reception of migrants seeking asylum in third countries. Will other centers be built here in Albania?

Prime Minister: Sympathy, above all, I think that the participation of third countries is not a solution in itself. The participation of third countries should only be part of a more complex solution, because if it is thought that third countries are the solution, then we will go nowhere, there will be no solution and we will end up hitting the wall that we face or collide with the iceberg that has come before us. Talking about this very big challenge that Europe has, as if it were something related to the next elections, the next mandates, the next opportunity to rise to power, is the same as playing music while the Titanic is sinking.

On the other hand, to drown, we say, I don't know if you have it in Italian, to drown with a drop of water and present this effort to create something, to try something - without pretending that we will solve the problem, but anyway asking for increased country participation - as something to throw away, it's very derogatory and really funny.

Rai3: Speaking of facts, Tirana has been transformed since you were mayor and in the future. Very high fantastic towers are built. How are these towers financed? Last year, in the real estate sector, there was an investment worth about 3.7 billion euros, but, more or less, only 800 million came from banks. Where does the money come from that...

Prime Minister : First of all, this is also not true. We are building here. There are a number of towers, but it is only the beginning. In five years, we will have many more. We engaged the best architects in the world. There are six or seven Pritzker Prize winners working with us in Albania. Yesterday I was in Lezha, where we have welcomed the Afghans and where the centers will be and, just last year, in Lezha, 500 real estates were sold to citizens of the European Union, Poles, Spaniards, Czechs, Dutch.

Rai3: Yes, in Tirana, 20 percent of apartments are empty.

Prime Minister: Who says it?

Rai3: Official data.

Prime Minister: No, it is not true.

Rai3: Data from electricity consumption.

Prime Minister: No. I'm telling you something

Rai3: It is from your electricity operator.

Prime Minister: Wait, you are too polluted by information sources, which are one-sided, so we need to establish a little balance.

Rai3: It is objective data,

Prime Minister : So, firstly, we have come off the Moneyval gray list, precisely because we have a very strong anti-money laundering regime from that point of view. Second, the Albanians who live abroad are no longer the Albanians who cleaned the houses or picked the fruits and who could be treated as slaves. They are people who today pay quite significant amounts to the Italian budget. There are almost 40 thousand businesses created by Albanians. And we Albanians are like you, the Italians. You are Albanians wearing Versace and period! Leave Raphael, Leonardo and others, you have nothing to do with them, to put it as it is, even though you have great thinkers, great intellectuals.

Rai3: However, here you call Italian architects to build, like Boeri.

The Prime Minister : They are fantastic, but I am speaking from their point of view.

But if you think about the pride of Italians, you think that Rafaelo was Corsican, but we leave it at that. Then, I was telling you that, just like you, we are also connected to the land, we are connected to the roots, and the Albanians who are abroad invest to buy apartments and so on.

Rai3: However, I am a journalist and I interview criminals and non-criminals, while you, as prime minister, should not meet with criminals.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Prime Minister : I don't date criminals, okay? This is offensive.

Rai3: So, distance yourself from Luftar Hysa?

Prime Minister : I don't even know who it is, okay? I don't even know who it is. I have met people, I repeat, many people, Albanians who come and go, who want to meet, see, with friends and others. They are told, "okay, come, what are you going to do, how are you going to do it", etc. However, the fact that a person even in the government or a person who comes from abroad, comes out tomorrow who is rotten does not make me responsible for meeting him or meeting someone else. So this is how you become a dirty, dirty journalist because...

Rai3: No, it's not dirty, because now I'm going to ask you this question. Now that you know who Luftar Hysa is, will you cancel his casino concession?

Will you revoke the permit for Valona Construction, which, according to the Canadian authorities, is Hysa's shell company?

Prime Minister : Excuse me, first of all, I neither give nor cancel concessions or whatever.

Rai3: You have a state post.

Prime Minister : I'm sorry, but I'm not the state, I'm the Prime Minister. The state has its own structures, it has its own administration, because it is as I said before. So the Italian criminal, who has been sentenced here to 17 years, has gone to court about a problem, which he says was created by us while he was laundering money, and he used a word of mine, posted on Twitter, after he was expressed the prosecution, as pressure against the freedom of the press. So, it is necessary to go through the judicial way, through the institutional way for every subject, for everything, because investigations are one thing, judicial processes are another thing, final decisions from the courts are something else and if you go out with a sword and talk bag, then finds himself in very uncomfortable situations from the state's point of view.

Rai3: So, since you gave a concession, you started an investigation about this company?

Prime Minister : You are telling me something that I only now understand, that you are telling me, that I am not even aware of this thing. I repeat to you, once again, we, the Albanian state, do not give concessions, do not give permission, do not give anything to criminals. Then, if someone turns out to be a person who has to answer to justice for affairs, as happens in Italy every month, you would never have the courage to say, "then, for that, the Italian prime minister who has met with that man, is a criminal"

Rai3: Yes, yes, when it is later discovered that there is an international investigation, the activity of these commercial companies is suspended, if they are suspected of being mafia, which means that, if they are mafia, there is no need for a judicial process either.

Prime Minister: Once again, we are adding words...

Rai3: No, I don't want to add anything.

Prime Minister : ... for this. You're trying to take the interview in the direction you want, which is to keep insisting on the previous show, that there's a criminal story here, a dark character story, and so on.

Rai3: If the Italian prime minister were to meet with the man who launders money for the Mexican cartels, I would ask her a barrage of repeated questions just on this aspect.

Prime Minister : I understand.

Rai3: So, it has nothing to do with you and Albania.

Prime Minister : I understand, but I'm repeating it to you. I have not met any launderers of any kind of money from any party. I have met with Albanians, who came to me, told me that they had the intention of developing something, and I told them: "Do as you like, the law and the roads are clear". And it doesn't seem to me that anyone got anything as a favor. Then, if it turns out that someone is dirty, then there are laws here. It's foreclosure, it's one thing or another. Yes, it is completely different, that is, it does not come from me. It's justice, it's...)

Rai3: We have also mentioned your brother, Olsi Rama...

 

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the
Olsi Rama

 

The Prime Minister : Which is another disgusting intervention in the life of someone who has no connection, in the life of someone who is only accused of being my brother, because the fact does not exist. Also, he filed a lawsuit and now I hope that this will also be clarified by the special prosecutor's office. Yes, do you understand? You are the Italian public service, you are not an Albanian channel that does as it pleases, because, at the end of the day, to talk about such things is to say that, brother, aaa has been accused... Accused by whom, accused of what ? Then where is the evidence? Then, these "evidences" are now, I hope, under investigation.

Rai3: I know that the investigation after the show has been reopened.

The Prime Minister : They are under investigation, as he filed a defamation lawsuit, so this should be left to justice. But to take things like that and make a mosaic of pieces that are all half-truths. They are all half-truths and therefore half-truths are the biggest lies, the biggest deceptions.

Rai3: Listen, you have an excellent relationship with Xorxha Meloni. You had excellent relations with all the prime ministers, especially Massimo D'Alema.

Prime Minister: Yes.

Rai3: Massimo D'Alema, is an adviser of yours, you appointed him as an adviser.

Prime Minister: No, I did not appoint him as an adviser, because I would not allow myself to appoint him as an adviser. He is a mentor.

Rai3: Ah, it's a mentor.

Prime Minister: Yes. He is one of the greatest statesmen, in my opinion, after the Cold War, and he is one of the most beautiful minds I have ever met. To enjoy his friendship is, for me, a great medal of honor.

Rai3: Even D'Alema has come to Albania to do business.

Prime Minister: What trade? What has he done?

Rai3:   It has set up a lobbying company.

Prime Minister: What about trade?!

Rai3: AEI

Prime Minister: Unbelievable! I never talked about business with Massimo D'Aleman. I always talked about politics, I always talked about Albania, I always talked about... Then, he is free to do whatever he wants. Well to always present these things like this!

Rai3: Yes, he founded a lobbying company. D'Alema has a lobbying firm in Italy and has founded one here as well. AEI is called.

Prime Minister: AEI

Rai3: AEI is called.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Prime Minister: I know he works for Ernst & Young in Italy.

Rai3: There is a lobbying society in Italy as well.

Prime Minister: And it is not a lobbying company.

Rai3: No, he has his own lobbying company in Italy.

Prime Minister : I am not aware of any lobbying company, but I would ask you to leave Massimo D'Alema out of this mud swim that we are doing together.

Rai3: It's not swimming in the mud, because a former partner of his, Consulcesi.

Prime Minister: Who is it?

Rai3: Consulcesi, which has opened a training company.

Prime Minister: Whose former partner?

Rai3: D'Alema's

Prime Minister: Yes, I don't know...

Rai3: Massimo Tortorella. You participated in 2019 together with D'Alema in the inauguration of this company, of this subsidiary in Tirana, which, even in Italy, has three hundred to four hundred employees.

Prime Minister: And then?

Rai3: In that case, the Minister of Health declared professional training mandatory for doctors, in order to exercise their profession.

Prime Minister: Unbelievable! Unbelievable!

Rai3: Why?

Prime Minister: Unbelievable! We want, we wanted to use an Italian excellence, to carry out a training process, let's say, to increase the skills in our health sector and this turns into a problem?

Rai3: No, it's not a problem. It's just a circumstance that makes me curious, that Massimo D'Alema's former partner opens a company here, and this company, at the moment it opens, has a decision that somehow favors him, even in relation to other entities….

Prime Minister: What happened then?

Rai3: I don't know, that's why I'm asking you.

Prime Minister: I'm sorry, but nothing happened. I'm sorry, it was supposed to happen, but it didn't.

Rai3: We published the answer on the website.

Prime Minister: No, the publication on the website came later, when we raised our voice. If we had not raised our voices, the publication would not have been made.

Rai3: From a journalistic point of view, the answer was.

Prime Minister: From a journalistic point of view, she is a child and you said that she had refused to answer. Meanwhile, you had all the answers. I have seen that...

Rai3: This is an interview and you are answering me.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Prime Minister: I'm sorry, you made the request in writing, and when you made the request in writing, you didn't say that I want oral answers as well. Did you ask them in writing? You got the answers in writing. And not only did you not publish them, and not only did you say he didn't respond to you, but when you talked about his stuff, you told lies. Lies. OK? And, not only a lie, but you put it in such a light, that I see that, according to you, it is the only way to investigate, but it is not true, because it would not be a sin if an investigation also went to favor of your investigators. That is, you should not always be right, that you go in to find the guilty and now people are guilty, because you have to justify your work. You could do an investigation and, in the end, say "no, Albania is not a narco-state", because this is an insult to a people and an insult to a country.

Rai3: We have said this, that there are accusations that it is a narco-state, we do not have the elements to say that it is a narco-state. Actually, I'm not here to tell you that you're narcotics.

Prime Minister: Ah, there are accusations! There is also the accusation that Italy is a narco-state, so what does that mean?

Rai3: That would be a very fair accusation, in my view.

Prime Minister: In your opinion?

Rai3: It is a country where the mafia presence is very strong, above all, in institutions.

Prime Minister: Aaa, a narco-state, Italy a narco-state. Your country is a narco-state and you say so without thinking twice.

Rai3: Because I am a patriot and I believe that to say, to accept the weaknesses of the Italian institutions in the face of the mafia presence is very patriotic.

Prime Minister: You have no idea what a narco-state is. If Italy were a narco-state, you wouldn't have a mouth to speak, because you'd be buried alive in the ground.

Rai3: There are different ways to bury, Prime Minister, there are different ways....

Prime Minister: Yes, I saw it, I saw it. It is also the way...

Rai3: They don't necessarily have to kill you.

Prime Minister: No, there is no need. Freedom of thought and information can be killed even by doing your journalism. There is no doubt, because, quite simply, you have a telecamera, you use it as a weapon, you have your tongue and your voice and you use them as bullets, while others are placed there according to the script, to reach the desired conclusion in advance. So, just like Enver Hoxha did. He would first decide who was the culprit and then go back to make him fall. This is also called a democratic way to kill.

Rai3: I wouldn't be here to take your testimony. I would have limited myself to collecting all the evidence...

Prime Minister: You did it, you did it.

Rai3: Yes, in the meantime I'm here and I'll report all your views on anything I say.

Prime Minister: You have done it, you have already done it. You are here because I raised my voice. You are not here because you chose it.

Rai3: Prime Minister, I asked...

Prime Minister: No, no, you have not officially requested any interview.

Rai3: Prime Minister, I also wrote to you on your private number, at your press office.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Prime Minister: There is no interview request on my private number.

Rai3: We even wrote through official mail. For this I have to correct you, because you are saying something incorrect.

Prime Minister: The issue is here. Okay, so I'm saying something incorrect.

Rai3: For that. I made the interview request to you and I am here not because you raised your voice, but because I want to hear all the voices.

Prime Minister: I want to tell you something. This is a commitment to throw mud from the dirtiest sources of Albania to put forward in the public service and then present it to the Italian people, because you are against the reception centers.

Rai3: Prime Minister, I am really sorry for this attitude.

Prime Minister: I'm sorry, but what interest does the Italian public have in rumours.

Rai3: Prime Minister, I am very sorry for this attitude, because there are two ways to see what happened, this interview. One way is with the slightly autocratic vision to pretend that a journalist's questions are mud

Prime Minister: No, no, no, no questions...

Rai3: Feeling. From the moment I am telling you that the presence of the mafia is strong and even the ties with your government. There are many exponents of your majority, of your government, who have been arrested and even convicted - sorry, allow me just 30 seconds - convicted for dealings with the mafia. There are articles in the international press, and even positions taken by the US Senate and Congress, that denounce these dangers. I would see it as an opportunity that I, as the Italian public service, am giving you to explain to Italian viewers what the truth is from your point of view, that is, to clarify what for you is a misunderstanding. Why do you say you are throwing mud? I am putting in front of you a microphone and a telecamera. I'm giving you space on my show so you can express your opinion.

Prime Minister: Listen, I didn't tell you that you are throwing mud with the questions. I talked about the program. I didn't talk about the questions. There are no guilty questions.

Rai3: Excellent.

Prime Minister: But there is also the freedom to talk about the questions, right? But I didn't say that the questions are mud. You just told another lie.

Rai3: You said that I threw mud just because I mentioned things that I encountered, that's why you said that I threw mud.

Prime Minister: No, no. Let me finish. Now you just told another lie. You said "many exponents of your government". Who are these?

Rai3: He was a minister of the interior.

Prime Minister: Ah, one.

Rai3: It was the successor minister, Xhafaj, who was not wrong, he resigned immediately after. He is the current interior minister. There is a conversation between the two mafia leaders, who say: "We know who will be the next Minister of the Interior and mention the name of Taulant Balla. Excuse me.

Prime Minister: I'm sorry, but to say these things you must be cheeky. I can't imagine how the Italian service can show this face... So those things you are saying are inconceivable. "Many exponents" and then he talks about a minister of the interior, years ago and then adds Fatmir Xhafa, the man who resigned in the most civil way, not because he had anything to do with it.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Rai3: My brother was convicted in Italy.

Prime Minister: Will you let me finish?

Rai3: Absolutely, yes.

Prime Minister: Not because it was related to anything, but simply because of a moral issue. OK? After a mudslinging attack, for which there is an ongoing court case and mudslinging that was on the front line has been condemned by the court of first instance. He belongs to the political group that supplies him with these things.

Rai3: Why is it half true. There is a document about the land donation and we interviewed the direct protagonist, Lisi, the former head of Interpol.

Prime Minister: I am sorry, I have read all the documents, thanks to you, because you did not read them to the Italian public, because you had all three of them there. Then, here it is a completely different story and you are once again talking about a drug trafficker, you are talking about a person...

Rai3: ...for Italian justice, Artur Shehu is sent to court.

Prime Minister: He is talking about a man I do not know.

Rai3: Artur Shehu.

Prime Minister: I could even know him, he is not... but it does not appear to me that he is a convicted person, it does not appear to me. Sent for trial is one thing, condemned is another.

Rai3: Interpol chief cannot take land from someone who is under investigation.

Prime Minister: This is the first. Second, you are talking about something that is untrue, because there was no interaction, no interaction, in the role of a lawyer, by the General Secretary of the Council of Ministers with this subject when he was a lawyer. And you didn't say that in the program.

Rai3: That's what Lisi told us.

Prime Minister: No, no

Rai3: He confirmed the interaction to us, he didn't say that he had met with a drug trafficker because the middleman had been arrested... I don't know what his name was.

Prime Minister: Your head is full of names and you don't even know where to put them. I don't want to know their names.

Rai3: Yes, the middle name is of interest, because it is of interest to Artur Shehu, he knows Engjëll Agaç very well.

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Prime Minister: I don't care about the names, I don't know them. I speak of facts.

Rai3: Okay, so.

Prime Minister: I am talking about the facts.

Rai3: Me too.

Prime Minister: No, you don't talk about the facts, you only talk about half-truths which are the biggest lies.

Rai3: You still haven't told me what is a lie, a half-truth.

Prime Minister: What does a lawyer do now, who was taken by a group of trustees of a deceased person who had property in Albania, of Albanian origin, who had property in Albania.

Rai3: We said it.

Prime Minister: He had a power of attorney from the court to exercise his duty as a lawyer, which he no longer exercised when he became Secretary General. What does he do with this story of the general here, the general there. What does that have to do with it? Why did you put a lawyer in the middle, who has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the story, that I neither know nor care about. Because you wanted to prove - and you still want to do it, I see, I imagine now the new series - you want to continue to prove that Xorxha Meloni made a wrong deal with a shadowy government. And this is shameful! Good? Because it does not coincide with the truth and consists of half-truths. Talk to me about the third interior minister who is today and say, "in a phone call between the two...". How do I know about phone calls... No, sorry. Where do I know about phone calls between people who can say, “Oh, I met him. I met Edi Rama, he told me, I told him...". How do I know this? But how can you pull these things off like that? That phone call you talked about must be factual. Then, if the facts support it, fine. How can phone calls be recorded, this, that, and go out and tell the public, "there was a call". Was there a phone call? What then? I pick up the phone - and there are times I don't even recognize the numbers - I pick up the phone and talk. The fact must be followed. I mean, what happened next? I, now, am learning what democracy means.

Rai3: You are teaching others...

Prime Minister: No, no. I'm learning it.

Rai3: Ah, you.

Prime Minister: Watching you, I am learning what it means to protect democracy from half-truths. Because, in the name of democracy and freedom, half-truths and lies these days have taken on extraordinary proportions. I understand social networks, I understand, but this is the Italian public service. But how is this done, how are such things done?!

Rai3: Prime Minister, we list facts, reliable evidence, but not only us in Italy. Free and independent journalism does that. I have only presented you with facts, I told you, a reliable source. What do you say?

Prime Minister: You have not lined me up so far, at least so far, no facts.

Rai3: That's how you rate it. I'm sorry you see it that way.

Prime Minister: You lined me up... No, no, you tell me where the facts are. You lined me up...

Rai3: You are telling me that, in Albania, the mafia does not exist and has no political influence. Is that your attitude?

Prime Minister: Let me finish.

Rai3: Please. Of course. To understand synthesized.

Prime Minister: So it is a fact that you say that two criminals talk to each other, I do not question it. OK? But, to take this fact, to bring it here. That is, to travel from Italy, come to me and say "many exponents...

Rai3: I answered your question. That was not my question. I answered your question.

Prime Minister: No, no. You said, "many exponents of your government have been proven to have ties to the mafia." You said it. Who? Tell me a name that has gone to trial and all the rest - I don't comment - but that has not been tried or convicted of mafia collaboration, so that we are clear... No, no, you can be the judge on the judges, it is your right.

Rai3: No, I am the journalist.

Prime Minister: I am talking about the fact. For me, being a journalist is a big thing. This is me.

Rai3: Are you here in the picture?

From immigrants to links to crime and accusations/ Rama's debate with the

Prime Minister: It's me.

Rai3: What happened to you? With hair, I don't know you.

Prime Minister: Because I was a journalist.

Rai3: In '97.

Prime Minister: This is me.

Rai3: Who asked you like that?

Prime Minister: You saw that I had put them back. It was brought to me by a girl who opened an exhibition about the freedom of the press and took them out, even though I told her that they have already been seen. I know what it means to be a journalist.

Rai3: Who called you like that, Prime Minister?

Prime Minister: The prestigious sources you interviewed for the first series.

Rai3: He was neither a source nor an interviewee. If it had been about the opposition and the issue of the opposition, I would have come to you to interview you about Berisha, if it had been an issue of the opposition.

Prime Minister: Stop naming me here. You asked me "who"? I gave you an answer. That's not the topic. The topic is this. I know what it means to fight for freedom of speech. I also know what it means to still have the marks on the skin, here and here.





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